Wishbone Ash remake

[Rick and Roll]

Can't anyone leave well enough alone?

I read that in the music news, one of the best records ever made, "Argus" is being remade. Now please understand I am not adverse to any artist doing whatever they want. The world is full of peole who seek to tarnish their legacy by making poor decisions. Also, I don't begrudge anyone for changes in musical direction. It doesn't make me think less of their music I like.

But this is simply pointless. Geoff Downes and John Wetton playing on a track? For what? So Martin Turner can one up Andy Powell? What do Downes and Wetton have to do with Argus?

Although my post is passionate, I really don't give a rat's ass what they do. But you'd have a hard time convincing me that this is a worthwhile venture. It's ok to split the band in two. Both versions are fine live, and they continue to make music with their respective lineups. But please, Martin Turner.....why this?

[teermin8r]

For the almighty Pound!

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by teermin8r

For the almighty Pound!

Well said - here's one less pound they get from me..or dollar or dinar or zloty.

Or to stick the knife into the old bandmates. leave those other two to Asia

I disagree.

Argus is an amazing album...one of the best to come out of the 70s without a doubt.

In the same way that Mick Abrahams did a "New" This Was, Martin is doing the same with Argus.

No-one batted an eyelid when the This Was band went on tour and neither should they with this project. And a project it is. I doubt that Martin will make an exact copy of the album (I don't recall Hammond Organ on the original) and to hear a different take on some great songs will be, at the very least, interesting.

My last point is that as Martin wrote most of the songs I think he has the right to do what the hell he likes with them.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by KeithieW

I disagree.

Argus is an amazing album...one of the best to come out of the 70s without a doubt.

In the same way that Mick Abrahams did a "New" This Was, Martin is doing the same with Argus.

No-one batted an eyelid when the This Was band went on tour and neither should they with this project. And a project it is. I doubt that Martin will make an exact copy of the album (I don't recall Hammond Organ on the original) and to hear a different take on some great songs will be, at the very least, interesting.

My last point is that as Martin wrote most of the songs I think he has the right to do what the hell he likes with them.

I was hoping you would give your perspective...the fact that he wrote the songs (and sings them) carries an enormous amount of weight. And I am not a traditionalist. It just seems to me that this coincides with the other band's appearance at Rosfest and smacks of the Ozzy/Sabbath one-upping that occured in the early 80's when Dio joined. The difference there was that each band (Ozzy and Iommi's) put out new material and drove each other to creative highs. Remaking Argus doesn't seem to me to accomplish this.

Here's hoping they can get along in the future.

As for Mick Abrahams, that record was so far different from other Tull - and Tull actually has been playing This Was cuts for years, with Ian's own take. The difference I see here is that Mick and Ian have reconciled their differences and I'm certain Ian is happy that Mick would do this. Remaking a blues-based record seems a bit easier.

But a good discussion I think - thanks Keith for the perspective.

[Toccata]

My perspective is the same of Rick's point of view !
ARGUS was a wonderful work, almost sacred in my conception!
Never, never will be the same thing like the Imortal first creation ARGUS, with the first creators!! Wouldn't have the same voices, backing voices, the same guitar feelings, dialog between them, drums rhytms , etc....
I like Geoff Downes and John Wetton, both are nice musicians, like Martin Turner are too and better in the Wishbone Ash good times!
Only one member we can't to hope the same realization like everyone together!!
Could be nice to watch them together playing an excellent live concert , but record another CD of ARGUS version, well I wouldn't buy one...
Would be the same thing like The Leonardo da Vinci's "Monalisa", with another smile...

[progdirjim(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Rick and Roll

Now please understand I am not adverse to any artist doing whatever they want. Also, I don't begrudge anyone for changes in musical direction.

Although my post is passionate, I really don't give a rat's ass what they do.

Um, Rick I have to call you on this. You're not adverse? You don't begrudge? You don't give a rat's ass? Come one, be honest with yourself if not with us...

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by progdirjim

Um, Rick I have to call you on this. You're not adverse? You don't begrudge? You don't give a rat's ass? Come one, be honest with yourself if not with us...

ok the second one, good point, but certainly not one and three..... I'd already forgotten about this.

[kirk]

Ummm...maybe then, ELP can remake BSS, Yes can remake CTTE
(Without Squire and Howe, natch)...Gilmour can remake DSOTM
w/o Roger, or vice versa, doesn't matter...you get my drift.

What they do in concert's one thing. Playing w/ a classic is another.
Oh! Maybe the 3 Genesis guys can remake "Lamb.." Interesting...
Pass.

Kirk

[progdirjim(Admin)]

Originally Posted by kirk

Ummm...maybe then, ELP can remake BSS, Yes can remake CTTE
(Without Squire and Howe, natch)...Gilmour can remake DSOTM
w/o Roger, or vice versa, doesn't matter...you get my drift.

What they do in concert's one thing. Playing w/ a classic is another.
Oh! Maybe the 3 Genesis guys can remake "Lamb.." Interesting...
Pass.

Kirk

If ELP wanted to remake BSS and leave off that inane Benny The Bouncer that would be fine by me

Artists can do what they want with their material. Working where I do, with a massive art collection, the conservators are always finding where people like Carravagio and Vermeer made new versions of their masterpieces and they ended up in collections around the world. I don't see that this is any different.

Like all art, you don't have to like it but if something is created that even one person likes then the artist has been successful in his vision.

Also. if the motive for doing a remake is money then so what? Even the great masters did this too. Nothing changes, nothing's different.

This could be a good debate. Flame on!

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by KeithieW

This could be a good debate. Flame on!

I'd rather not flame, thank you.

Re-reading the prior posts, I stand by what I said. Clarifying though, I view this remake effort with several parts apathy and more parts chagrin and disappointment.

As for benny the Bouncer, ok with me as long as "Seamus" from Meddle goes too!

[kirk]

No Flames...well, maybe a little acid reflux

I view it as exactly the same as a painter mass producing
a painting for sales.

KW, as you know- what happens when an artist does this?
What would happen to the value of Starry Night if
more than one existed ? It dilutes the value of the original.

As far as this being "interesting", I'd say, "yeah, in the way
that a dog fight is interesting".
It's immature and ego driven to have to remind us of who
the "genius" was behind Argus...imo, of course.

K

[VERNIXX]

Originally Posted by kirk

I view it as exactly the same as a painter mass producing
a painting for sales.

KW, as you know- what happens when an artist does this?
What would happen to the value of Starry Night if
more than one existed ? It dilutes the value of the original.

As far as this being "interesting", I'd say, "yeah, in the way
that a dog fight is interesting".
It's immature and ego driven to have to remind us of who
the "genius" was behind Argus...imo, of course.

K

I totally agree, Kirk. Good points.

[Rick and Roll]

I'd like to reiterate a few points.

I just remembered that John Wetton, on David Cross' "Exiles", sings on the title cut. That is a remake of the KC song. It is faster, much different, and almost a completely different song, and is awesome. But that is only one song - this is a remake of every song on the record.

Also, I can't get past the fact that given the acrimonious history, Martin Turner is not jealous. A spring release is in time for Rosfest.

But I guess David Pack couldn't be with Ambrosia either.

[kirk]

Yeah, Adrian redid Heartbeat, The Beatles did a slow version
of Revolution on the White Album...
This strikes me more like Conspiracy doing the nearly identical
version of Union's "Let Go" to prove a point.

This is the result of a feud, reminds us of the sadness that
these people that produced such a great work can't work together.
To me, it tarnishes the memory.

Knock my socks off w/ some great new material,
then, he might get some genius points, or at least a "still got it".
Regurging the glory days...eh, not so much.

K

Good to chat with you again Kirk...it's been a while.

I respect your views and in many ways I agree with you. I don't, however, believe that Martin is doing the 'remake' of Argus as a slight on his old band mate Andy Powell. When I saw Martin a few months ago he was just excited to be recording and playing some of the songs that he wrote years ago. His Cds of new music such as "Walking the Reeperbahn" have a lot of merit IMHO and deserve a listen.

You could, maybe, look at "Son of Argus" as new arrangements of songs and this is something that happens all the time in many genres (I hate that word but it fits here) of music. How many versions of My Way have there been? How many different recordings of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony are there out there ? Thousands. And what is beautiful is that they are all different in some way and offer something joyous to the ear that would have been lost were they not to have been recorded.

I'm looking forward to Martin's effort and will listen to it when it is released. If it turns out to be a bummer then I'll say so.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by KeithieW

How many versions of My Way have there been? How many different recordings of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony are there out there ? Thousands. And what is beautiful is that they are all different in some way and offer something joyous to the ear that would have been lost were they not to have been recorded.

I'm looking forward to Martin's effort and will listen to it when it is released. If it turns out to be a bummer then I'll say so.

Agreed. And I'll take it at face value about not being a slight. But the examples above are remakes by other artists, not remakes by the same person of a whole record. That's what I'm getting at. I'm sure there's examples of remaking whole records - it'd be naive to think otherwise. But remakes by one member only of a whole record I'm not fond of.

I'm betting it wouldn't be a bummer Keithie, though...how could it be?

[kirk]

Hi KW,

That sounds reasonable. Integrity isn't something you're short on,
so i'll await your review.

I'm guessing there'll be things that effect the outcome, like age
on the vocal chords...changes in technology, production.

No matter what the motive, comparisons will happen.

Good chatting w/ you too, mate. Let's not make it so long inbetween.

N A M A S T E

Kirk

[Toccata]

But when we listen any Beethoven's 5th simphony version
we are in front of a Classic Orchestre.
Listening any classic masterpiece we depend of a Composer, The players , and a Conductor interpretating his version of the work .
In a Prog Group like W.A , the composers are the same players interpretating their same version , everything are the most intimate possible!!