My (personal) opinion about a mis-use of the Speakeasy.

[JamForte(Admin)]

This morning, I regret to say, that I saw an astonishing comment in the Speakeasy.

Clearly, there has been a misunderstanding which I would like to (publicly) correct.

1. These comments reflect my personal opinion -- I AM NOT speaking for "the management" if other admins feel strongly about this and wish to weigh in then, fine, - but until that time - this is JUST *MY* Opinion.

2. One of the non-Patron regulars on AM has an internet show on another station - not the first time (and won't be the last).

3. I noticed that this person was HOSTING their show in Aural Moon's Speakeasy ...

4. I Suggested that, if the person wanted a show on AM, they should contact Jim with a proposal. That suggestion was declined (for reasons of show hosting language).

5. I note to all readers of this thread that Aural Moon, the Station *and* the Website are NOT FREE to their owners and the admins -- they are provided to non-patrons for the same reason that many Prog bands make records -- A love of the Music - NOT a commercial venture. Aural Moon DOES NOT MAKE MONEY.

6. I observed to the chap hosting his show (on a different station) from the AM website that I (personally) believe that such use is an unfair abuse of the privilege that is being provided to him free-of-charge ... and suggested that (at the least) Patronage would soften the blow. The suggestion of Patronage was declined on the grounds of "not able to support all the musical outlets I'm interested in".

7. AT NO TIME did I say that the person was no longer welcome in the Speakeasy - and I am astonished that my comments should be misinterpreted that way -- However, I am not able to say so in the native language of the person concerned - so this thread will provide an opportunity to re-translate and review.

8. I repeat that, in my opinion, I believe that using the AuralMoon facilities to promote or host other stations is, at best, in bad taste and, at worst, an abuse.

9. Of course, we wish to promote the music, bands and gigs ... no-one is going to have any issue with that.

in my years here as a listener, faffer and admin on Aural Moon, this is the first time I've needed to make any statement like this .... sad.

Very sad indeed.

Common sense dictates that using the speakeasy to host a show on another station is just wrong. Aural Moon is paid for by SOME and for ALL the listeners. This does not mean that such a flagrant abuse of the facilities available should be tolerated.

I don't know who the person is (I don't need to know) but I would politely ask him to stop abusing AuralMoon in this way. Have some good manners.

I would go further than you Jam and suggest that if this practise is continued then thought must be given to the possibility of banning said person from the station all together. I donate my time and money to AuralMoon not some other station. If said person wants to use (abuse) the facilities then they should donate towards the cost of the station or leave.

[OverHillandDale(Admin)]

I hearty hear hear and well done, sirs, on this subject. Use of this website for the promotion and gain of another similar site WITHOUT our invitation, permission or intention to assist another group is, as we say in the local colloquialism: It just ain't right.

We do host another stations show here on Aural Moon, but this is a co-project to promote the better of community of Progressive Rock. If we, as a community, wish to extend those types of projects to other stations, that too is fine. But, it has to be mutual.

If someone wants to promote their show on another site, then that in the SpeakEasy is not something I would oppose. Posting in the news or forum would need to be discussed and decided by the Owner and administrators.

I even recall a time we offered up our white page chat room for use by another site as their chat site server was down. There were many of them that are also members here. They came during the Gagliarchives, we all chatted and played, their server eventually got fixed and they returned to their home (so to speak). It was a lot of fun, BUT it was a mutual relationship that was approved and invitation sent to do so.

I would, however, submit these questions for administrative discussion. Was the show any good? Does it attract listeners to our site - where perhaps they'll come back? Any chance the host will have a personality transplant or do we need to take him out back behind the server and thrash him with a nine-tail connector cord?

Anyway, there's room for co-sponsored events, but the suffix being the key point of that statement.

[progdirjim(Admin)]

for the record, Jam has my complete support on this issue, and his handling of it

[ErikM]

Hi there !

First I like to say that I NEVER had in mind to promote another radio station.
Second : It has nothing to do with prog music. Do you think Kiss, Aerosmith, Green Day, All That Remains, All Time Low, Black Veil Brides, .... are prog music ? Check it out on www.rockfmonline.be !
Sorry for using the stationname but if you wanna talk about something you have to know the reason for this thread.
Anyway, I never had the feeling to promote a radiostation that has little in common with prog music. Why should they listening ?
I'm using the Speakeasy because I was thinking it is a "freedom of speech"-corner. Well, I'm very wrong. It isn't ! And that's why I said I didn't feel very welcome anymore.
And I never wanted a show on AM because my radioshow is far more ellaborated. I'm playing all kinds of music like many other european stations. And be sure : Prog bands would like to have a record in a show with different kind of music because preaching for your own church is easy.
In other words : Prog music can only become more popular when played in main stream radioshows. That's the reason why I'm playing a few bands in my own 3 hours long radioshow. But : I'm also playing Elvis, Janis Joplin, Sex Pistols, Clash, Costello, Stones, Byrds, ... and a bunch of new bands and records.
I always liked AM and always will do but this thread is much ado about nothing.
Greetings, ErikM

[NorCalKurt]

I think the point has been missed. IMHO. Keep up the good work gang.

[Yesspaz]

Originally Posted by ErikM

I'm using the Speakeasy because I was thinking it is a "freedom of speech"-corner. Well, I'm very wrong. It isn't ! And that's why I said I didn't feel very welcome anymore.

Hi, Erik. First, please don't leave. We don't want you to feel unwelcome. That's not the point of what Jam and Jim were discussing. Promoting a show in a freedom-of-speech way is surely fine. If I had a jazz show on a jazz station, and I occasionally said in this speakeasy, "Hey, everyone. I have a show called JazzSpaz that you should check out sometime," I don't think anyone would have a real issue. The issue is in saying over the air to my JazzSpaz listners, "We don't have a shoutbox or chat room on this site, so everyone go over to Auralmoon.com and we'll use their shoutbox."

By the way, I don't know what it means in Belgium, but in the Constitution of the United States of America [which AM calls home], freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to say anything you want at anytime you want anywhere you want. You can't go in a church in the middle of a worship service and start reading from the phone book, and then say "Freedom of speech" when someone asks you to stop. You can't get a bullhorn and start reciting Mein Kampf in the parking lot of the mall without getting arrested for vagrancy, public nuisance, trespassing, or sound ordinance. "Freedom of speech" will not get you out of legal trouble.

What freedom of speech does mean is that we American citizens have the right to speak against the policies of our government, to speak our conscience, to speak our opinions, without fear of reprisal by the government. There are sanctioned ways to do this, via freedom of the press and the right to petition the government.

One major component of this is that freedom of speech applies to the PUBLIC forum, not the PRIVATE forum. Meaning, in a public forum, I can express my political views, religious views, or whatever. I cannot walk around the parking lot of a mall handing out political literature without permission; it's a public place, but owned by the private company that owns the mall. You can blaspheme God all you want walking through the public park. Say it my house and I can ask you to stop or leave.

My point? Auralmoon is not a public forum. It is privately owned by Jim Brennan of San Diego, CA. He can and does allow a LOT of freedom of speech in the public areas of his private forum. I freely express my Christianity. Others freely express their atheism. We all express our loathing of pop radio. But one thing I can bet the private owner and his helpers don't want to do is pay for a forum for someone else to appropriate for another station. That's not freedom of speech.

That being said, ErikM, we'd love you to stay around and enjoy the prog and programming of Auralmoon.

Spaz out.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Yesspaz

Hi, Erik. First, please don't leave. We don't want you to feel unwelcome. That's not the point of what Jam and Jim were discussing. Promoting a show in a freedom-of-speech way is surely fine. If I had a jazz show on a jazz station, and I occasionally said in this speakeasy, "Hey, everyone. I have a show called JazzSpaz that you should check out sometime," I don't think anyone would have a real issue. The issue is in saying over the air to my JazzSpaz listners, "We don't have a shoutbox or chat room on this site, so everyone go over to Auralmoon.com and we'll use their shoutbox."

By the way, I don't know what it means in Belgium, but in the Constitution of the United States of America [which AM calls home], freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to say anything you want at anytime you want anywhere you want. You can't go in a church in the middle of a worship service and start reading from the phone book, and then say "Freedom of speech" when someone asks you to stop. You can't get a bullhorn and start reciting Mein Kampf in the parking lot of the mall without getting arrested for vagrancy, public nuisance, trespassing, or sound ordinance. "Freedom of speech" will not get you out of legal trouble.

What freedom of speech does mean is that we American citizens have the right to speak against the policies of our government, to speak our conscience, to speak our opinions, without fear of reprisal by the government. There are sanctioned ways to do this, via freedom of the press and the right to petition the government.

One major component of this is that freedom of speech applies to the PUBLIC forum, not the PRIVATE forum. Meaning, in a public forum, I can express my political views, religious views, or whatever. I cannot walk around the parking lot of a mall handing out political literature without permission; it's a public place, but owned by the private company that owns the mall. You can blaspheme God all you want walking through the public park. Say it my house and I can ask you to stop or leave.

My point? Auralmoon is not a public forum. It is privately owned by Jim Brennan of San Diego, CA. He can and does allow a LOT of freedom of speech in the public areas of his private forum. I freely express my Christianity. Others freely express their atheism. We all express our loathing of pop radio. But one thing I can bet the private owner and his helpers don't want to do is pay for a forum for someone else to appropriate for another station. That's not freedom of speech.

That being said, ErikM, we'd love you to stay around and enjoy the prog and programming of Auralmoon.

Spaz out.

Thank you 'Spaz for clearly stating, with examples, that the Freedom of Speech doesn't guarantee or mean that one has the freedom of speech anywhere or everywhere!

[Yesspaz]

We Miss'ssippi folks learned our letters and everythang.

[Mike413]

I don't see anything wrong with promoting something on here that is not in direct "competition" with aural moon(ie another prog station). I personally have mentioned another prog station in the speakeasy but it's not like I said hey go listen to it or I have a show on there or something.

I personally would like to know about non prog stations or programs. ANd yes I do greatly appreciate Spaz's show "the digressive rock hour."

But to reiterate I don't think someone should be reprimanded too harshly in this circumstance(unless it becomes an ongoing occurrence). An alternative is he(Erik M)could just post something on the forum. I don't see why not. If he always mentions it every time he's in the speak easy then I can see how that could be similar to spam but just to post it once or mention it once is something I don't see as a real big deal. However, trying to get AM listeners to listen to it while he is hosting it is pushing it imo.

I only did a very cursory glance at this thread so I apologize if I'm simplifying it or missing important points.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Yesspaz

We Miss'ssippi folks learned our letters and everythang.

But duz them thar folk knowz howz ta do cipherin'?

[deSousa]

Originally Posted by JamForte

3. I noticed that this person was HOSTING their show in Aural Moon's Speakeasy ...

My apologies if this is a dumb question, but how can you host a show in the Speakeasy? A text based show? I'm at a loss here...

Personally I have Erik in high regard, and doubt he'd do consciously something to hurt AM. But I don't really get what's going on.

[deSousa]

Originally Posted by Yesspaz

My point? Auralmoon is not a public forum. It is privately owned by Jim Brennan of San Diego, CA.

Spaz you might be in err on this one. Anyone can register and use the Speakeasy and the Forum at their own will, I doubt you'd get away with this in court, at least in Europe.

But I wouldn't dive too much into nationality issues here, common sense is international.

[sharcnorris]

Eric mon ami,
known you for years... so glad you have a show, tell us about it anytime.

Hosting your listeners in chat here?

Not cool,............your using the site outside its purpose

...... you know you made a mistake. we love you, dont do it again..... FIRE!!!!!!

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by deSousa

Spaz you might be in err on this one. Anyone can register and use the Speakeasy and the Forum at their own will, I doubt you'd get away with this in court, at least in Europe.

Oh??? Where in Europe? Generally speaking, the concepts which comprise Freedom of Speech, Expression and Press are far more limited by law throughout Europe than in the US. Regardless, NONE OF THAT LAW pertains to speech within the confines of a private forum such as Aural Moon.

Yes, anyone can register. There is, however, a terms of service agreement which all agree to when signing up for an account here. One must agree to the terms to become a member here; therefore, is it not a contract of adhesion, nor it is unconscionable. Under common law, this is a valid contract for it satisfies all of the legal elements: Agreement, Offer, Acceptance and Consideration. With limitation, one could contract their rights away!

Originally Posted by deSousa

But I wouldn't dive too much into nationality issues here, common sense is international.

It seems that ignorance is international too. Ignorance of the law, that is. We've been around and around on this subject before and it's tiring.

[Yesspaz]

Originally Posted by VAXman

But duz them thar folk knowz howz ta do cipherin'?

Yeah. About like this.

[deSousa]

Originally Posted by VAXman

Yes, anyone can register. There is, however, a terms of service agreement which all agree to when signing up for an account here. One must agree to the terms to become a member here; therefore, is it not a contract of adhesion, nor it is unconscionable. Under common law, this is a valid contract for it satisfies all of the legal elements: Agreement, Offer, Acceptance and Consideration. With limitation, one could contract their rights away!

Past experiences with the law lead me to conclude otherwise. Not to mention the fact that there may not be a way to identify a registered user with a legal entity/person.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Yesspaz

Yeah. About like this.

ROTFLMFAO! That's FN funny. I've bookmarked that! Thanks!

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by deSousa

Past experiences with the law lead me to conclude otherwise.

In reference to which legal particulars which I have stated???

Originally Posted by deSousa

Not to mention the fact that there may not be a way to identify a registered user with a legal entity/person.

Not always. However, unless you're intentionally trying to hide using the clandestine methods of many hackers, your IP address and activity time stamp can be used to find out who you are. Nearly every ISPs, even if you are given a dynamically assigned address, will be able to trace you down. If may require court subpoena to obtain said info but it does exist. Also, you must supply an email address here on Aural Moon (and with many other forums) to which you receive activation credentials to enable your account. That too can be used to align you with the account user. Cybernetic forensics are commonly used in courts for this purpose. I've been involved in the forensics of such court cases

Enlighten yourself instead of assuming, wrongly, that you are correct in those assumptions. Free Speech in Online Communities: The Delusion of Entitlement

[meissa]

Originally Posted by VAXman

Free Speech in Online Communities: The Delusion of Entitlement

THANK YOU.

I thought it was clear that this place, being a not for profit and privately funded by the owner and patrons alike, that there are gonna be some restrictions on what can be said/not be said in the speakeasy or the forums. Apparently I was wrong. I think for the most part the "restrictions" are very liberal and it's kinda sad that because of that boundaries have been stepped on. We have to remember that this is Jim's "house", and even though we do contribute at our own will to keeping it rich in music and other content, we have to respect the rules that are written in the TOS, as well as those unspoken, common courtesy life rules. This is not nor will ever be a "public" place, no matter how hard some try to believe otherwise.