New Website

[XincLloyd]

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Subject:
[Fwd: Returned mail: delivery problems encountered]
From:
Lloyd ------
Date:
Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:06:11 -0700
To:
VAXman@auralmoon.com
CC:
VAXman@tmesis.com, dflateau@gmail.com


Among my possessions are:
-Luck, Bad
-Ignorance

Trades welcome! Especially for clues

I really wouldn't be posting this stuff here if email would actually work, Honest!
Moderators, feel free to delete this, as appropriate.

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by XincLloyd

A message (from ) was received at 31 Aug 2006 16:55:25 +0000.

The following addresses had delivery problems:


Permanent Failure: Other address status
Delivery last attempted at Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:55:30 -0000



Reporting-MTA: dns; comcast.net
Arrival-Date: 31 Aug 2006 16:55:25 +0000

Final-Recipient: rfc822;
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.0 MAIL FROM: 554 REPLY: 554_5.7.1_Message_rejected_due_to_header_contents.
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; Permanent Failure: Other address status
Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:55:30 -0000



Subject:
[Fwd: Returned mail: delivery problems encountered]
From:
Lloyd ------
Date:
Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:06:11 -0700
To:
VAXman@auralmoon.com
CC:
VAXman@tmesis.com, dflateau@gmail.com


Among my possessions are:
-Luck, Bad
-Ignorance

Trades welcome! Especially for clues

I really wouldn't be posting this stuff here if email would actually work, Honest!
Moderators, feel free to delete this, as appropriate.

That was bounced from MY server... not the AM server.

You forwarded the email returned from the AM server to my server. Its filters saw a rejection message but one that was NOT generated by my server. It believed it was a spoof and rejected the message.

You should have sent the contents of the email in the body of the message to me, not as a forward of the rejected email.

[rick_wakeman]

I

this idea first came came to my mind when using the new chat room.

we all have the possibility to add an avatar, a lil icon, close to our nick on the chatroom. Then there was half of the chatters plus me who decided to pick a flag matching one's country as an avatar.

i suggest to upgrade the moonie map logo : keep the red full circles which diameter determines the AM member population, but add other colored spots to where on-line moonies are from.

What do you think?

II

i don't know what happened during the ernst catastrophes, but let's continue. Avian was talking about AM merchandises. Is it possible to get a AM bib soon?

[XincLloyd]

Hate to be a wet blanket...but.
The main page has been all but useless to me since the addition of the frappr maps. My browser (Mozilla 1.0.3) hangs the UI for 2-3 minuntes for each access to the frappr data.
Yes, I'm using an old Mac (266Mhz G3) OS 9.2 and a cable modem. But, the main moon page all worked quite well until the addition of the maps.

I suppose I could fix it myself by spending a few thousand dollars on new computers and upgrading/replacing software. But, that's an admission fee I'm reluctant to pay. (retirement income)

I had to use IE 5.1 (ptooey) to post this. ... and, it won't update the shoutbox without a manual page refresh. (among other problems with the buggy browser itself...ahem, another story)

Could the frappr stuff be made optional (button push?) for those with more compatible equipment?

Best Regards,

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by XincLloyd

Hate to be a wet blanket...but.
The main page has been all but useless to me since the addition of the frappr maps. My browser (Mozilla 1.0.3) hangs the UI for 2-3 minuntes for each access to the frappr data.
Yes, I'm using an old Mac (266Mhz G3) OS 9.2 and a cable modem. But, the main moon page all worked quite well until the addition of the maps.

I suppose I could fix it myself by spending a few thousand dollars on new computers and upgrading/replacing software. But, that's an admission fee I'm reluctant to pay. (retirement income)

I had to use IE 5.1 (ptooey) to post this. ... and, it won't update the shoutbox without a manual page refresh. (among other problems with the buggy browser itself...ahem, another story)

Could the frappr stuff be made optional (button push?) for those with more compatible equipment?

Best Regards,

I got an idea. How about we either use xinc's idea or scrap the frappr? It's like the videos. Nice, but I can't do anything else on the page until the video is done.

The most important thing is the music, followed close by the people.

[lotus]

Originally Posted by XincLloyd

Hate to be a wet blanket...but.
The main page has been all but useless to me since the addition of the frappr maps. My browser (Mozilla 1.0.3) hangs the UI for 2-3 minuntes for each access to the frappr data.
Yes, I'm using an old Mac (266Mhz G3) OS 9.2 and a cable modem. But, the main moon page all worked quite well until the addition of the maps.

I suppose I could fix it myself by spending a few thousand dollars on new computers and upgrading/replacing software. But, that's an admission fee I'm reluctant to pay. (retirement income)

I had to use IE 5.1 (ptooey) to post this. ... and, it won't update the shoutbox without a manual page refresh. (among other problems with the buggy browser itself...ahem, another story)

Could the frappr stuff be made optional (button push?) for those with more compatible equipment?

Best Regards,

I agree with Xinc. When I am on the road able to connect with 56 k only, it takes tons of time to load mainpage. So I would prefere to ban the map and frapr behind a buttom in the left hand menue..

[RogorMortis]

May I suggest to the mangaement the thought of making a second discount intro page for the poor and low bandwidth people without the frills but just the bare necessitites. The address can be used seperatley.

[VAXman(Admin)]

we can keep a frappr but we don't need the flash to load when loading the main page.

[Avian]

Yes, I'm using an old Mac (266Mhz G3)

Wow - that is a really, really old computer. From the 90s. And that is a pretty old browser - April of 2005. I'm surprised it even works on your computer, really.

Do the flash videos freak out your computer as well? It looks like your setup may not support Flash widgets. What version of Flash are you using? Be sure it's the latest version. It shouldn't even load until you scroll down to see it.

I am reluctant to keep the site from moving forward with all the great features modern browsers provide, including some flash tools, like widgets and video. There's a point where you just can't keep supporting really old computers. Your computer is coming up on its 10th anniversary, and for a computer, that's essentially like 120 years old.

You certainly don't have to pay thousands to upgrade your system - really. You should be able to get a reasonable machine for much, much less.

Avian

[VAXman(Admin)]

Originally Posted by Avian

Wow - that is a really, really old computer. From the 90s. And that is a pretty old browser - April of 2005. I'm surprised it even works on your computer, really.

Do the flash videos freak out your computer as well? It looks like your setup may not support Flash widgets. What version of Flash are you using? Be sure it's the latest version. It shouldn't even load until you scroll down to see it.

I am reluctant to keep the site from moving forward with all the great features modern browsers provide, including some flash tools, like widgets and video. There's a point where you just can't keep supporting really old computers. Your computer is coming up on its 10th anniversary, and for a computer, that's essentially like 120 years old.

You certainly don't have to pay thousands to upgrade your system - really. You should be able to get a reasonable machine for much, much less.

Avian

...but I don't see the need to load the entire Flash map behind the tiny view window. Just a link would be fine. I've seen a number of page loads here that stalled when the frappr flash wasn't available or downloadable.

[XincLloyd]

This is really a response for Avian's comments in quotes.
"Wow - that is a really, really old computer. From the 90s. And that is a pretty old browser - April of 2005. I'm surprised it even works on your computer, really."

Age is relative to perspective. Ask a 10 year old and a 50 year old person "What is old?" and you're are likely to get vastly different answers. Ask a computer manufacturer and a computer purchaser "what is old?" and you'll get similarly different answers. The latter is directly tied to cash flow. A computer is just a tool. Do you throw away a screwdriver simply because it is ten (or 120) years old? If it still works on 90% of the screws encountered, where is the incentive to replace with recently manufactured model.
I do plan on a new computer in the next couple years. Perhaps I'll remember to revisit the AM site when that occurs. It is difficult to believe, however, that in the entire world I am using the oldest computer attempting access to the AM site. I expect I am simply a more vocal representative of many. Where others simply moved on to other web sites rather than inform of any difficulties. Maybe not?

"Do the flash videos freak out your computer as well? It looks like your setup may not support Flash widgets. What version of Flash are you using? Be sure it's the latest version. It shouldn't even load until you scroll down to see it."

No, flash dosn't work well with my computer. MPEGs work just fine, though. But, I don't normally use my computer to view videos, either. I gather from discussion that that's the new "killer Ap" that's being used to sell new computers. ???

"I am reluctant to keep the site from moving forward with all the great features modern browsers provide, including some flash tools, like widgets and video. There's a point where you just can't keep supporting really old computers. Your computer is coming up on its 10th anniversary, and for a computer, that's essentially like 120 years old."

??? Are you implying that anything 120 years old (or computer over 10) should be routinely discarded? I don't think I want to go there, philosophically. (Throw away society and only new things have value.)

Anyway, that's certainly your option to restrict access to the web site for only those users who have purchased the lastest Hardware and software. However, if you restrict access to your domain or business to only those 5 ft tall or less, you can expect fewer visitors or patrons than is in the general populace. I don't understand why you seemingly want to restrict your audience and limit growth potential, though.

"You certainly don't have to pay thousands to upgrade your system - really. You should be able to get a reasonable machine for much, much less."

For the hardware alone, I agree. But, 10 or more titles of software and/or upgrades are far more expensive than the hardware. There is also the peripherals to consider; printer, scanner, hard drives etc. The separate issue of asking someone else to spend money or savings dollars so that someone else can enjoy the latest technology, could be an interesting side discussion.

Forced obsolesence is an easier pill to distribute than to swallow.

Finally, I must ask the question. (Probably out of ignorance) If the new technology and web site upgrades are such an improvement over the "old", why is it exclusionary? New computers are faster and new software more capable, right. Why aren't they smart enough to accomodate legacy equipment?

Best of luck with whatever you decide! I'll revisit AM in the future as I really do enjoy the music played there. However, it probably won't be your website that directs me to Amazon.com for CD purchases, sadly. I've purchased 30 CDs in the last month directly from exposure through listening to AM.

Best Regards,

[Rick and Roll]

Originally Posted by XincLloyd

A computer is just a tool. Do you throw away a screwdriver simply because it is ten (or 120) years old? If it still works on 90% of the screws encountered, where is the incentive to replace with recently manufactured model.

Bravo! A great statement.

Anyway, Can you really not access Aural Moon with the computer you have?

[Avian]

Originally Posted by XincLloyd

Ask a computer manufacturer and a computer purchaser "what is old?" and you'll get similarly different answers.

A computer is just a tool. Do you throw away a screwdriver simply because it is ten (or 120) years old? If it still works on 90% of the screws encountered, where is the incentive to replace with recently manufactured model.

But if the screwdriver doesn't work on 60% of the screws made today, then you might want to consider buying a new screwdriver. This is much more the case with your computer. For instance, Flash is a fairly ubiquitous tool on the web today. You admitted that your setup does not work well with Flash. If most people are using The New Screw to hold a few things together, and for whatever reason you can't get a new screwdriver, I would think that complaining that The New Screw is being used is not realistic.

I do plan on a new computer in the next couple years. Perhaps I'll remember to revisit the AM site when that occurs. It is difficult to believe, however, that in the entire world I am using the oldest computer attempting access to the AM site.

Of course not. And I'm sure we can make very simple changes where they are appropriate to accommodate people who are having trouble with this or that. And we've chosen not to implement many, many features because of backward compatibility. Not just with the website, but with music and streaming options as well. We have gone out of our way to make sure as many people have a good webgoing and streaming experience.

I expect I am simply a more vocal representative of many. Where others simply moved on to other web sites rather than inform of any difficulties. Maybe not?

This is speculative, and certainly not based on anything in reality. We use very run of the mill web products that are in active development. These products are also constantly being updated to combat new security threats. IN fact, I updated everything today for this very reason. Compatibility is maintained at a very high level, but is always a balancing act between moving forward with features requested by many users on the web site, and keep it backward compatible for as many people as possible.

"Do the flash videos freak out your computer as well? It looks like your setup may not support Flash widgets. What version of Flash are you using? Be sure it's the latest version. It shouldn't even load until you scroll down to see it."

No, flash doesnt work well with my computer. MPEGs work just fine, though. But, I don't normally use my computer to view videos, either. I gather from discussion that that's the new "killer Ap" that's being used to sell new computers. ???

Flash has been around since 1996. Certainly not anything new. And it doesn't just play videos, it's used for animation and other functions, like our chat room. I'm sorry your setup is having trouble with Flash. Maybe together, we can get it to work. But while I don't want to build a Flash-heavy website for compatibility reasons, I don't think it's unreasonable to use it here and there for features that Aural Moon listeners have been requesting. Again, the balance.

??? Are you implying that anything 120 years old (or computer over 10) should be routinely discarded? I don't think I want to go there, philosophically. (Throw away society and only new things have value.)

Of course I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that is that your expectation that you'll be able to use your computer on the world wide web with 100% compatibility of features indefinitely is unrealistic. That is simply the nature of technology.

Anyway, that's certainly your option to restrict access to the web site for only those users who have purchased the latest Hardware and software.

Well, this is not what's happening. You've taken your particular situation, and your problem with one particular very minor feature, and blown it out of proportion by saying that we're restricting access to the site. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Finally, I must ask the question. (Probably out of ignorance) If the new technology and web site upgrades are such an improvement over the "old", why is it exclusionary? New computers are faster and new software more capable, right. Why aren't they smart enough to accommodate legacy equipment?

They are smart, and for the massive collection of them, they do support legacy equipment. But surely you wouldn't restrict them from adding new features that the new technology allows them to do. For instance, your home computer, probably built in 1997, can play videos. But home computers that are 9 years older than it (Apple IIx), built in 1988, cannot do that. Is it fair to say that Apple never should have made your computer have the ability to play videos, or display more than 256 colors?

The same is true for the web. New software and hardware technologies make new features never before available. While compatibility is taken into account to a great extent (really, a tremendous effort goes into it), the backwards reach is not unlimited.

And all this is assuming that this is the reason Flash does not work with your setup. It could be that there's something specific about your particular system that is interfering with Flash, and that it's capable of running it just fine.

I'll keep putting maximum effort into keeping this site compatible with legacy setups. I would suggest that you may want to do some troubleshooting on your end to see if there's any way to make your setup more compatible as well.

I hope you'll continue to enjoy the free commercial-free music and web services!

Avian

[XincLloyd]

"Anyway, Can you really not access Aural Moon with the computer you have?"

Well, yes. But, this like asking "Can't you hold your hand in boiling water?"
Yes, but it hurts and is not good for my health.

The main aural moon page loads, then freezes while I get a watch cursor and at the bottom its says :
Resolving host us.bc.yahoo.com
Or:
Transferring data from: us.bc.yahoo.com
Or :
connecting to: us.maps1.yimg.com (I think)

If I'm lucky, after 3 minutes at each of the above reports (yes, I used a stopwatch) the map will actually load and I can navigate the page and it will automatically update the playing album banner and the shoutbox as it did before the maps were added to the site.

The last, frustrating, straw was the message:
tranferring data from www.frappr.com which froze my entire user interface for 7+ minutes until I forcibly rebooted my machine as a last resort desperation attempt to restore control.

With I.E. 5.1.7 browser on my Mac and AM's website, the page is useable (sort of) while frappr and the maps delay connection or service. ( I assume Mozilla is waiting for completion of load before returning to the UI, and IE5 interleaves the processes???) Apart from the routine hourly IE 5 crashes (one reason I don't usually use IE5), I CAN access the AM web site. However, the shout box will not update recent postings without manually poking the refresh button to get the new shouts. Mozilla would keep the shout box, and current album playing, updated automaticly. The forums are annoying, though, I think it repaints the whole screeen for each Avatar pic in Explorer. I counted 14 page repaints during which you can read two words before the page clears for the next paint. This is likely due to my processor speed and the way IE5 uses it.

So, basically it is a test of patience and frustration tolerance. During which time I find other things more interesting to do.

Anyway, this is what my AM website access is like for me now. About three weeks ago, before the maps were added, website access appeared normal and useful in my preferred browser. FYI

Given Avian's most recent response, it is clear that I should just go away and not bother you guys anymore. So be it. I was just posting feedback on how the site appears to me. Clearly, my experience is being discounted as unimportant to a greater goal.

Best of luck with future endeavors! So long.

[Rick and Roll]

[quote=XincLloyd;21931

Given Avian's most recent response, it is clear that I should just go away and not bother you guys anymore. So be it. I was just posting feedback on how the site appears to me. Clearly, my experience is being discounted as unimportant to a greater goal.

Best of luck with future endeavors! So long.[/QUOTE]

It's too bad there can never be any real discussion of issues anymore to find a compromise solution.

I thought you were being communicative and working towards that xinc. I guess I misread your posts.

Thanks for the luck

[Avian]

Originally Posted by XincLloyd

Given Avian's most recent response, it is clear that I should just go away and not bother you guys anymore. So be it. I was just posting feedback on how the site appears to me. Clearly, my experience is being discounted as unimportant to a greater goal.

Actually, we are going to address the particular issue of the frappr map, so that issue may go away for you. In any case, your concerns are not being dismissed. As my last mesage mentioned, we will work on our end to make it as compatible as possible.

But the overall message is that we will probably continue to add new features, and with a system as old as yours, it might not be the last problem you have with the site. You may want to 1. try and get Flash working with your scurrent ystem, and 2. investigate upgrading your system.

[XincLloyd]

Just to set the record straight. I did some Flash investigation, out of curiosity. I'm no programmer. But, as far as I can tell, Flash works fine on my set up. Even before I updated the flash plug-in. Certainly, Web sites with multiple instances of flash animations slow my machine down. It's a slow processor by today's standards. It's hard to tell from simply viewing a web page animation if it is being done with Flash, HTML, Javascript, or whatever. I'll leave such determinations to experts like Avian.

However, my opinion is that my machine freezes are due to the connection delays with the Frapper site, for reasons unknown. But, I lack the tools to prove this. And, I gather no one else is effected by this anomally.

Happy Trails!

[VAXman(Admin)]

Xinc, I too would like to see the Flash not load when visiting the page. A simple graphic would suffice. We can still link to the frappr site but IMHO why download it if the user is not interested in it.

[mailotron]

Luckily they all write in english LOL sounds like greek to me

Xinc.....I'm so sorry that you are having so many problems. Please try and resolve them and stay a part of the family.

I know that this is going to upset VAX and a whole load of other buds but.....

Get a new PC and load Firefox!!!!!. After a few teething problems I have NO issues at all.

The most important bit of this post however is the bit about persevering. It will be worth it I promise.